How Do You Get A Supplement Manufacturer To Take On Your Project?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwD0eN4uNQk

Show Summary

How to Get a Manufacturer to Take Your Project Seriously

1. Finalize Your Formula Concept: You shouldn't just approach a manufacturer with a vague category idea. Your formula concept should be about 90% finalized.

2. Know Your Format: Decide upfront whether your product will be a liquid, powder, capsule, or other.

3. Identify "Hero" Ingredients: Clearly identify your core ingredients and their intended efficacious amounts.

4. Provide Market Examples: Sending links to 2 or 3 existing products on the market—and explaining how you want to improve upon their deficiencies—is highly effective.

Volume, Costs, and Margins

1. Be Honest About Quantities: Manufacturers have internal equipment and supply chain constraints. Avoid inflating your numbers just to get a quote, as custom manufacturing involves heavy fixed costs that must be factored in.

2. Tiered Pricing & Multipliers: When launching at smaller quantities (e.g., 2,500 units), expect lower profit multipliers (around 2x) where you might just break even. As you scale to higher volumes (10k to 50k+ units), your goal should typically be a 4x to 5x multiplier.

3. Diminishing Returns: If your formula costs $12 to make and you plan to sell it for $25, you are hitting a point of diminishing returns where scaling won't bring the manufacturing cost down enough. In this case, you need to tweak the formula or pivot products.

Packaging and Presentation Basics

1. Stock vs. Custom Packaging: Stock options (like a plain white HDPE bottle) are easily accessible at low Minimum Order Quantities (MOQs) but lack a "sexy" presentation. Custom molds are more visually appealing but come with high upfront costs and higher MOQs.

2. Prepare a Project Brief: Coming prepared with an organized PDF/brief featuring your formula, pictures, and timeline drastically increases manufacturer buy-in.

3. Know Your Distribution Channels: If your goal is a retailer like Whole Foods, you must know their "no-no list" of prohibited ingredients beforehand. If you are selling on Amazon, expect additional testing steps.

Screening Your Co-Manufacturer

1. The Gold Standard of Quality: Ensure the facility is GMP Certified. Within GMP, audits from independent 3rd party agencies like NSF or UL are top-tier indicators of legitimacy.

2. Demand 3rd Party Lab Testing: A good manufacturer uses independent 3rd party analysis to verify potency, heavy metals, microbials, and identification to prove the product matches your exact specifications.

3. Expect a Contract: At a bare minimum, you should have a signed manufacturing agreement alongside an agreed-upon product spec sheet.

4. Avoid "Gouge" Prices: Get a few estimates to compare. If you see massive price swings (e.g., $5 vs. $10), check your details; one manufacturer might be quoting cheap botanical powders while the other is quoting premium botanical extracts.

The Value of the Relationship

• The 10-Minute Call Test: Mark emphasizes that a face-to-face Zoom or phone call is vital. If a brand refuses to spend 10 minutes talking, it’s a red flag for the ongoing relationship.

• Don't Jump Ship Over Pennies: When supply chains get disrupted or "stuff hits the fan," a solid, trusted relationship with your manufacturer is what saves your brand. If you are willing to abandon a good partner over 5 cents, you commoditize a relationship that should otherwise be a collaborative alliance.

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Full Show Trascription

Host (Mark): Welcome to the unbottled podcast, the show where each week we go behind the label of dietary supplement manufacturing. I'm your host, Mark Bryant, Esquire. Behind the scenes, we've got Danny.

Danny: Hello.

Mark: Hello, Danny. Today we're going to talk about how to get a manufacturer to take on your supplement project, which is a great topic.

Danny: Well, I agree. This is going to be a good show.

Mark: Yeah, it’ll be good.

Danny: A lot of people ask, “How do I find a good supplement manufacturer?" or “What makes the best supplement manufacturer?” But just as important, is the question, “How do I get a supplement manufacturer to take on my project?”

Mark:Yeah, to get a supplement manufacturer to really take a good look at you, I think the 1st piece would be to make sure that your formula is ready, or at least you have a really solid concept of what you want. If you're just kind of showing up with a category in mind and you think it's something that you could be passionate about, you may not be there just yet. Your conversations should start with a manufacturer once you know what it is you want.

So, for example, if you're going to look for—I’m just going to pick a category—say: joint supplements. If you're going to look for joint supplements, you should kind of have about a 90% of the way there of what you think that formula is going to look like. Definitely the format. If it's a liquid powder, capsule, gummy, whatever it is you're looking for, you should know that in advance. You should also know the key ingredients, like your hero ingredients that this product absolutely has to have. These core ingredients in, likely these efficacious amounts.

It doesn't hurt to take a look at a couple of products that are on the market and maybe send a link to those and say, "Hey, here's 2 or 3 products that I really feel are pretty good, but they're deficient in this area. And so what can I do there? I think we can do this." Have that conversation with the manufacturer at that point. It's really hard for a manufacturer to take you too terribly seriously if you really don't know what you want yet. So that's a good starting point.

Danny: A lot of people reach out and they just want a quote. And it's really hard for us to give you a quote, and commit those resources to getting you a quote if you're still figuring out those basics.

Mark: And we also, not to say that we don’t want to quote things, but we want to be able to give you something that's going to be pretty accurate. And the more accurate you can be the better you can compare manufacturers' offerings, if you're talking to a couple of manufacturers. So you want to make sure that you know what those are so you're getting an apples-to-apples comparison. If you go into one manufacturer and they say, “Oh, this one looks, well, we’ll formulate it like this.” And then you go to another manufacturer and they're like, “Oh, we'll put this out there.” I don't know, it just feels kind of wonky. You need to really know what you're looking for.

Danny: So, have your formula finalized to the best of your ability?

Mark: Yes!

Danny: What next?

Mark: You also want to have a pretty good feel for where you want to start with your volume, meaning your quantity that you're looking for. And be very open and honest with that. Quite often we get people that are so dire, or desperate, no not desperate...

Danny: Maybe excited is a better word.

Mark: Yes, excited is a better word. Hahah. Desperate sounded very ominous. They're just excited. People show up and they're passionate and they're like, "We want to get 500 bottles of this." And if that manufacturer can't produce 500 bottles because there's constraints within their equipment or their ordering or whatever that looks like, we need to know that up front. Quite often what happens, though, is in their excitement and their exuberance to want to get a quote, we’ll come back and say, “Oh, you know, we may not be a great fit for that quantity.” And then they'll come back and be like, well, “What is your quantity?” And we'll say “10 million.” And they're like, “I could do 10 million.” And they're just wanting to have that quote. And those aren't our MOQs at Canyonside Labs. I'm just throwing that out there to really exaggerate that. But you just got to kind of know what you're looking for.

There's fixed costs. So let's dive into that just really quickly. I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves because we're going to do an episode here next week talking about this in more detail as to why certain manufacturers have specific MOQs on certain products. And I really want to dive in really deep right now, but I'm not going to. So, there's just some constraints there. There's a lot of fixed cost in manufacturing, and depending on how complicated your product is or isn't, and what amounts and what that manufacturer may or may not be using regularly in their facility determines what they have to buy on their supply side to bring in. And they may not use it all for your product, but they don't have anybody else that they're going to make it for. Anyway, there's a lot of variables there. And if you're having a nice open conversation with the manufacturer, they will be transparent with that. And so just be open to what they have to say.

Danny: What should my gross margin be?

Mark: All right, 60 seconds?

Danny: Yeah, I'm gonna give you 60 seconds.

Mark: Danny's keeping me on a clock, so we stay really focused.

Danny: 60 seconds starting now.

Mark: This will very largely be dependent upon the quantity that you're ordering. So when you're at a lower, when you're just getting started and you're at that lower quantity, as you're ramping up, your multiplier is going to feel less than it will be once you actually get to quantity.

So when you're 1st starting out, make sure you get tiered pricing based on quantity from your manufacturer. So you know once you're doing 10,000; 20,000; 30,000; 50,000 units, you're typically at that, at those numbers, you're going to probably be about 4 or 5X of what those numbers are, which means when you're at that smaller amount, say 2500 units, you're not going to get 4 or 5X multipliers out of that, right? You’re at 2X and hopefully you're breaking even. And you're not losing much, but some go in and they just, they know they're going to lose money for a little while and they're fine with it and they're ramping up. Typically, you want to know those higher volumes and be able to do about 4X, 5X.

Danny: That was good. That was 66 seconds. But you did good.

Mark: I'll do better next time.

Danny: Is there a margin where you would be like, this isn't even worth doing? Like if they're coming in at 2 times? So I'm trying to sell my joint supplement for $25 to come right in between the $20 and $30 range because there's some out there that are selling for $30. There's some selling for $20. I want to come right in the middle. $25 is what I want to sell it for, but I talked to a supplement manufacturer, and I want 2500 units, and that's going to cost me $12. So I'm kind of right at a 2X profit. Is there a time where you would tell them, “It’s not worth doing?”

Mark: It's going to be different for every product. I would suggest that maybe, there's a possibility, if you're starting out at a $12 product and you're selling it for $25, the chances of you ever getting that down to $4 is not going to be part of the equation, even at likely 50,000 or 100,000 units, right? That's never going to happen. You’ve reached a point of diminishing returns where it doesn’t matter if you order, you know, 100,000 or 100 million. It's pennies at that point, right? Yeah, that's tough.

Danny: That answers my question. Like, if they're coming in at $12, and they're planning on selling it for $25, they are going to need to tweak that formula or find a different product altogether.

Mark: Yeah, maybe, yeah.

Danny: We didn't talk about packaging needs. Could you talk on that for just a few minutes?

Mark: Yeah, so... again, the word I hate. I just hate saying “depends” all the time, but everything all depends, right? There's a lot of stock packaging out there that you can get in lower MOQs, which is great. You'll see that all the time. Just like a white HDPE packer-style pill bottle. Those are always available. You can get them anytime, but they sure aren't sexy, right? If you're really looking for—presentation is 90% of what I'm putting out there—you've got to go out and find custom packaging, and then custom packaging comes with a whole new sort of thing with MOQs. Because then they're getting into designing a mold, right? They're doing this mold and it's got to be shaped a certain way. And then the design work and then the molds are really expensive and all the things.

Now, I kind of downplayed how nice you can make a little white bottle look. But there's ways to make things look a little fancier, but typically on the lower MOQs, um, it's going to be a tough sell to do too terribly much. Now, if you want to go all in on packaging, then go all in on packaging, it doesn't mean you have to fill every single bottle with product, right? If your MOQ on a certain bottle with a packaging manufacturer is 25,000 units, we don't have to fill 25,000 units, we just have those for the next run. But that's just more of the upfront cost.

Danny:This is important too: let your manufacturer know upfront if you have a packaging style that is not very common. We had somebody reach out to us not too long ago that wanted a powder product in a spouted gusset bag. Have you seen those before?

Mark: Yeah.

Danny: So letting us know that type of information, letting your manufacturer know that up front, if there's some kind of packaging that has some kind of special, whatever.

When somebody comes to present their project, do they need to prepare a project brief?

Mark: That sure is helpful, right? When a potential brand shows up and they've got this nice little docket—not necessarily even a slideshow, but if they've got a nice PDF that's got some pages and some pictures and some things that's got a formula on there. I joke often that sometimes guys on a golf weekend, you know, they get together and they're out drinking Monsters and playing golf and doing whatever they're doing. And they're like, “We could be the next Monster Energy!” or “5-Hour Energy!” and maybe they could. But then one of their guys is calling manufacturers Monday morning after the golf weekend, and they haven't put a ton of thought into that yet. I'm not saying they can't do it. There's a chance. But you get more manufacturer buy-in if you come prepared. And if that happens, that sure feels nice. As a manufacturer, like, “Oh, all right, let's see if we can help these guys.” Because then we can see your vision. We can see what that looks like.

Danny: What are the bare minimum things that you need to know when they're presenting to you?

Mark: Knowing the formula is a big deal. So that's always a nice component. Have a nice little, and it doesn't have to be too fancy even, just here's the 5, 6, 7, 8 ingredients. Here's the amounts per serving that we think would be efficacious to make this product really awesome. And also, if you have some packaging examples that you saw online—again, the internet has all the stuff, so you can go out there and search and be like, “Ooh, I love that. I’d like something like that.” It doesn't have to be this because you don't want to copy, but it gives the manufacturer an idea of like, okay, we can work with this. It also is helpful to know some stuff like where you really would like to start with your MOQs. Like, what are you thinking? What are your forecasts, maybe? Anything that you can provide as far as quantities.

Danny: Timeline?

Mark: Yeah, right. “We want to launch in 3 to 6 months.” Well, if our lead time is 3 months or 90 days, then we got to start making product tomorrow. So if you're coming and you're thinking, oh, it's got a little bit of time there, that's always really helpful.

Danny: What about target audience or anything like that?

Mark:  Like those aren't things we have to know to be able to produce, but it's helpful. It's kind of nice to know that they've done the research.

What distribution channels are you considering? You might be deciding, “We really want to get this into Whole Foods.” Well, then we got to talk about some things that are on their no-no list, right? So we can't use any of those things in your product. Or if there's some things that you're just like, oh, we're just going to go directly on Amazon and here's what we're going to do. Okay, that's helpful to know what those additional testing steps might look like, and we’re happy to share that process, we do it all the time. So we'd love to share that with you, so you're prepared. It's not surprising. Everything's ready and you make sure that's the direction you want to go. Those are the basics. I would think those are kind of the core things that are really helpful.

Danny: What are some things that Mark looks at for an ideal presentation?

Mark: So the ones that I've seen that have had a lot of success—now, this goes back to like earlier stages of my career—is if you have a face with your brand, that's always really helpful, especially as we get more down a road of technology and we start to lose connection. I've seen a lot of people that have started out with a YouTube channel and they were just doing free content. It was educational. There was no sales involved for, in some cases, years. And then all of a sudden their audience started to clamor for something. I'm not saying you have to invest years. “Don't make your product for years.” “How long have you been on YouTube?”

You look at a lot of the brands that have had success in recent years. It's come from a point of some authenticity, and it's just nice to know that, oh, these are the people that have created this product. So that's always a plus. If you have a background in that category. Or have done it before, right? If somebody shows up and is like, yeah, “We just launched product X 5 years ago and we exited for $100 Million,” you're like, “Well, I think I would be interested in talking to you further about your next project.” Those are obviously very, very rare.

Experience in the industry, knowing the CPG space and what that might look like is always really good. And it doesn't mean that the person who had the idea has that stuff, but if you have somebody on your team, that's good to know. You're like, okay, “we've got somebody that knows distribution and how this should play out.”

Danny: What about somebody who started a business, grown that business, sold that off, not even in the CPG space? Do you see them being successful?

Mark: I don't want to discredit anybody who's just getting started because a lot of people will start these types of projects as a side hustle and it turns out to be amazing. Go for it. But some experience is helpful. When you see that, it's kind of like, okay, they know the conversations we're about to have and they're pretty comfortable with those things. But it's also really fun having those conversations with somebody that is just learning and they're just soaking it in.

If I'm going to go back to the original question, which is: What are things that really stand out for me? If you have passion and you're organized and prepared, yes, like, let me help you. I often tell people too, if it's not something that we can do at Canyonside Labs, I've been doing this for a long enough time, I'm happy to point you in the right direction because I want you to be successful. And if it's a product that we feel is efficacious—not just fairy dust levels of things for marketing purposes, like, oh, “we're going to sprinkle some of this in just because we want to put that on our label.” If it's a really solid product, that is good for everybody in the industry. That's good for us. More people believe in supplements because of efficacious doses and because they work. All that stuff just really makes you feel awesome and you just want to help. I don't want to discourage anyone. If you got a dream and you're ready to go, let's have the conversation.

There's a relationship and some trust that's built on both sides. Like a brand should interview the manufacturer, and the manufacturer should also be interviewing and make sure, yeah, we can really do this for you. If not at this time, for whatever reason, we think we could do something in the future. You mentioned their quantity was low and we weren't aligned at that point. Talk to us when you're ready if you feel like we've been a good resource for you.

Danny: Okay, you ready for a 60-second question? So these are questions that I should be asking. What questions should I be asking my manufacturer? I’m going to ask you the question, and then I'm going to hit the start button. We're going to see how easy it is to answer. Are you ready?

Mark: Yep. Go.

Danny: How do I know that my manufacturer is making the product that they say they are making?

Mark: Oh, uh, testing. Testing is always going to tell you all the things. And nowadays, you want that 3rd party analysis of your product. We tried to bring stuff in-house a while back, to do all the lab testing, because it speeds things up, right? We were able to control the testing. But we found so many of our customers loved having that 3rd party. And honestly, we did too. So it's not just us telling you, “we just made you a really awesome product.” It's, “hey, we made you this really awesome product, and this lab tested it and verified that it is a really awesome product made to your spec. It's done all the things. We've checked all the boxes.”

And certifications, if you're specific. The gold standard is having your GMP certificate. The gold standard within GMP is NSF, like an NSF audit. There's different agencies, these 3rd party agencies that step in and come in and verify that we're doing everything right. NSF is a big one. UL, there's a handful of them.

Danny: And time is up. That was really good, actually. And you kind of answered another question, which was: What are the absolute musts to a good co-manufacturer? I should have given you more time because of that.

Mark: I think that was probably plenty. The certifications and the testing tells you that they're doing things right. Because you test for all the stuff: heavy metals, potency, identification, microbials, like all that stuff gets tested. And if they're passing the bar and give you a certificate of analysis, that's saying—that's the stamp of approval. All of our suppliers, we have to audit those to make sure that they're legitimate and not just some guy that's got a brother over in another country and they export and import. These are companies that bring in the materials, they have all the documentation direct from the manufacturer. And that's just one example of all the things that happen in GMP to make sure that that manufacturer is doing everything right. And so that's a big deal.

Danny: We'll definitely do a show about GMP certification and what that means for a manufacturer and for a brand.

Mark: Yeah, you can put that on your label, right? So you can say manufactured in a GMP certified facility. And that's a big deal.

Danny: Okay, you ready? Question number two. What are the standard contracts to have in place with a manufacturer?

Mark: We offer a manufacturing agreement, which most manufacturers should do, and that just kind of outlines the nature of the relationship. Meaning we send you a product spec sheet, it says all the things on there, you agree and sign. Yes, this is the spec, this is the bottle, this is what we're doing, these are the dates, these are the things. Ask for whatever you feel comfortable with, but those are kind of, that's kind of the basics, I think.

Danny: So at the very minimum, some kind of a manufacturing contract?

Mark: Yes.

Danny: All right, and last question, since you answered the other one already. What questions can I ask a manufacturer to ensure that I am not getting gouged on price?

Mark: Well, it never hurts to get a couple of estimates. It's good to have a couple because that's going to tell you some things, right? If they're all within, you know, a dollar of each other on the estimate side, then you know, okay, that's probably the price. Probably not getting gouged. If you get these outrageous swings, where somebody quoted you $5 and somebody else quoted you $10, we say sometimes that's the "I don't want to take this on" price, or there's a significant gap there, and then you probably aren't getting an apples-to-apples comparison. Maybe somebody's quoting you based on botanical powders, and someone's quoting you based on botanical extracts, and so that's going to be more expensive. It's always good to just review all those things, but you get a couple estimates and you'll have a pretty good idea.

Danny: That's a really good answer. It did go over 60 seconds. I apologize, but it's because I was so into the answer that I let go. So you're all welcome.

Okay, real quick. What are some things that show we are automatically “we're not a good fit?”

Mark: On the manufacturing side, if the expectations just seem unrealistic right out of the gate, like, “I need this product for $4, doesn't matter, it's got to be $4.” Well, if the raw materials are more than that, and we can see that, right? We put it together and we're like, “This is going to be at least double that just for the raw materials,” then you're like, well... If you're wanting something really quickly, meaning you show up to a manufacturer and say, “You've never made this product for me before, it's going to be the next big thing, I need it in 3 weeks.”

Danny: How about somebody that comes to you and is like, “Hey, why can't I just get a quote? I just need a quote. I've already picked a manufacturer. I just need a quick quote” — you know, to make sure kind of like you were saying, “to make sure that I'm not paying too much.”

Mark: Yeah, so, um, typically, I have like a little rule that I like to operate by and it's, you know, it's not everybody's cup of tea, but, uh, it works for me, at least it helps to get my attention. I like to see who you are. So as quickly as we can determine through the initial engagement of an email or two, if it feels like this could go somewhere, I like to have an actual conversation. Let's hop on Zoom and have a conversation for a minute. That makes a big deal to us, and I think it should make a big deal to the brand to know who they're talking to. And so for me, if somebody doesn't want to have that conversation, they're not willing to take the time, well, it can take a manufacturer, you know, many, many hours to put together a quote.

And we usually do a quick quote. So we're kind of just giving you a ballpark to make sure, oh, if you thought this product was going to be $5, but we can tell right out of the gate it's going to be $10, that's a big gap to cover. So we like to do that first. But if all the things are aligned, you still don't want to like hop on a quick call and actually spend 10 minutes together... eh, that's a tough one because that's kind of going to tell you a little bit about that relationship ongoing, right? And we want it to feel—we want that brand to be successful. It just feels like we should get to know each other a little bit.

Danny: Is it a problem if somebody comes to you and they let you know upfront price is all that matters on this product? “I need to get it to this price?” What does that tell you, I guess, as a manufacturer when somebody’s like, “You know what? Price is the most important thing to me.”

Mark: As soon as price is the most important thing... and again, I'm going to like err on the side of we're talking nickels, right? If it's the difference between—you've had a relationship with a manufacturer for, like, several years and all of a sudden you found it somewhere else for 5¢ cheaper, and that relationship with the original manufacturer is still in good condition, but you're willing to jump ship for 5¢... You know, maybe that manufacturer should, if there's 5¢ to give, maybe they should consider that.

But if it's a big number and that's why they're changing—because I've seen that before where somebody's been working with a manufacturer for a while and then they're like, you know, I feel like this might be higher than I should be paying. So they kind of reach out and you're like, yeah, “We conservatively could do this for $2 a bottle less,” and then, you know, if you're selling 100,000 units a month, that’s, you know, another $200,000 in a brand's pocket, right? You know, that's a big deal.

But yeah, if it's like the only thing... I would think me, if I had a manufacturer that I really felt, “Oh, golly, I sure like these guys and they do everything right and they're checking all the boxes for me, and it's 10¢ more and the other one's kind of like, 'I don't know if I really want to, but it's 10¢ less to go with those guys'"—to me, I would rather be really nice and comfortable and enjoy working. We've got to work, right? We're working, so we might as well enjoy each other and it feels like that gap could be bridged.

Danny: Absolutely. If you've got a good enough relationship, you should have a good enough relationship with your manufacturer that you can go to them and say, “You guys, I got a quote from somebody. They're doing it for 10¢ less. Can we talk about that?”

Mark: You don't want to commoditize the relationship either. And now I'm just telling you, “Well, I love you, and you've been great, but...” This is a very rare set of circumstances. It feels like if a brand has already had a relationship they can have that open conversation of: “Hey, is there any way we can find a way?” And there might be a way, you know, just better forecasting, all the things to like stay there.

It should probably be noted that relationships are important because at some point, you should always trust your manufacturer, but at some point, you may think, oh, you know, I could have got by and saved a few pennies over here or whatever, whatever that number is. When the stuff hits the fan or something gets sideways—and that happens in manufacturing, whether it's cars or supplements or something, a supply chain issue, whatever—you really want that manufacturer to just think your brand is just everything, right? And so those relationships are so, so, so important. And I would think that any good manufacturer is going to go to bat, no matter what. Solutions can be found when you're being united. A relationship helps. It just helps.

Danny: I love it. All right, we're down to final thoughts.

Mark: Okay.

Danny: I've been told that my MOQs are too low. What can I do?

Mark: Taking that question, are you asking it from—the brand is reaching out to a manufacturer and the manufacturer said, “Golly, I'd love to help you, but we need to be at a certain level…"

Danny: Yeah, our MOQ for this product is going to be about 5,000. And they're like, “I only need,” or “I can only afford 500.” What do I do?

Mark: Yeah, that's—that's hard. We tend to tell people that we will give an estimate at whatever quantity it is you would like. But on the lower end of that, you just are gonna hate the price, right? And so if somebody were to come in, I mean, we'll quote you 500, but there's so many fixed costs in manufacturing that you can't spread it out if there's not enough units. And so if it's a certain dollar amount to set up a machine, and we're only making 500 bottles, then we can only spread that cost across 500 bottles. But if it's the—but it's the exact same cost, like hard cost. And you're going to make 50,000 bottles. Well, now we get to spread that exact same—we'll say it was $100 to set that up. Now I get to spread that across 100,000 units.

I don't know that I have a great answer there. If there are companies out there that do stock products — and if you have a category and this doesn't answer the question very well — but if you have a category that you're wanting to get into, sometimes there might be something out there that another brand makes, they readily keep it on hand. It's not original to your brand, but there's going to be another 50 or 100 brands out there that have the same exact product with their label on it. But it might create the barrier to entry, set the bar a little bit lower. And if you can market around that and then eventually build up your following to the point where you're ready to get into larger quantities and do a custom thing, then you can do a "new and improved" or whatever that looks like.

I know that's a terrible answer.

Danny: I think that's a great answer because it gives a solution. It's one idea or solution. I've always thought too, like — before trying to sell it to a manufacturer, go sell that idea to somebody else. Get some investment in there.

Mark: You know, you're bringing up a great point, and I've even had people that have reached out who are just getting started — so 100% pure startup — and this goes back to the YouTube conversation. They were just providing education and content on things. And you see that a lot in the fitness space, right? Where somebody's like, "Yeah, you don't need this." "You do need this." "You need it in this amount, blah, blah." This particular individual was doing something like that. They were just showing people how to do it, but their audience didn't want to go and do the same thing, right? Because they thought they were going to mess it up. Something was going to be bad. "I don't trust myself weighing the right amounts." So all the things.

And so this person decided, "Hey, you know what? I reached out to a manufacturer." Their MOQ was 2,500 units for this pre-workout. This is not the exact story. But... "If I can sell 2,500 units of this, I'll place the order and as soon as it's ready in 12 weeks, I'll send it out to you." Kind of like he did his own Kickstarter, right? And lo and behold, he sold 2,500 units and then reached out and was like, "We're ready. I've sold all my stuff." I've pre-sold it all myself. What a great running start that is, right?

Now, again, that took — that person had been doing stuff for a long time and educating people for a long time, and people bought into that person because there wasn't any selling. There are lots of ways to be really creative and to get out there and try to make it happen. And how much does that boost your confidence that you've got a good product if you've pre-sold? Oh, you've gone out and you've talked to people.

Danny: I apologize. We're going to make this a 60-second response. "I need help finalizing my formula. What resources are available, and is it appropriate to call a manufacturer and get help from them?" Go.

Mark: I'm going to start at the end. Yes, it's absolutely appropriate to get help from a manufacturer, because a manufacturer does this all the time and they should be able to tell you the constraints or maybe some things you hadn't thought of that could enhance the product. But it's hard to go in blind to a manufacturer.

So if there's a couple things out there — and we mentioned this earlier — if there's some things out there that you're like 75%, 80%, 90% of the way there and you're just needing those final things, then yeah, have the conversation, because they can finish walking you through that.

Dude, was that 30 seconds?

Danny: That was 30 seconds.

All right, we are... done for today. But we are getting together next week.

We do want to tell everybody — please, before you go — like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell if you're on a platform that does that, to be notified when the shows are posted. We would like to answer any questions you have. You can put those questions in the comments, and you can email us. You can email us at info@canyonsidelabs.com and we'll answer those questions.

Yeah, that's great. We hope to hear from you.

Danny: Yeah, this is fun.

And next week, we're going to be talking about: What is an MOQ and how does it affect my product pricing? — which we touched on a little bit today, but we'll dive deeper and explain what that looks like and probably have some graphics that we can share and really break it down.

I think that's it.

Mark: All right, till next time.

Danny:We'll see you.

Mark: Be healthy.